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Questions, questions, QUESTIONS! Questions...

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Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Xeph

It's just guy... Or Stew.

From what I can decipher, you want to know about the Mission and Pure Swing? Just read back a few posts, I've given my opinion on both on the previous page, at length and in detail. If you don't want skid/flip, or arc... Then you're looking at the wrong balls.

The Pure Swing likes to jet through the midlane, then pinball off the dry.

The Mission is a power arc ball that makes a gradual move starting midlane, and continuing through to the pit.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
s2dio wrote
Xeph

It's just guy... Or Stew.

From what I can decipher, you want to know about the Mission and Pure Swing? Just read back a few posts, I've given my opinion on both on the previous page, at length and in detail. If you don't want skid/flip, or arc... Then you're looking at the wrong balls.

The Pure Swing likes to jet through the midlane, then pinball off the dry.

The Mission is a power arc ball that makes a gradual move starting midlane, and continuing through to the pit.


hmm thank you for your interest, a proshop that i've just met told me these info about balls, that explains why he keeps failing at league :P

another question is, i got an open and a knockout-tournament type league in my schedule in Istanbul, just wanna ask what kind of a ball or balls work for me in these patterns

1st one
http://istanbulbowlingopen.com/indir.php?id=105&lang=en

2nd one
http://www.kegel.net/patternlibrary/foPattern.asp?iKodPattern=602

that proshop guy told me to think about mission or pure swing on those patterns if i look at a predictable movement between skid flip and fat arc.
_______________
Arsenal

Roto Grip - Rogue Cell
Storm - Second Dimension
Ebonite - Lanebreaker
Columbia 300 - Scout Reactive
AMF - Nighthawk Pearl
Roto Grip - Crown

Soon to buy : Ebonite - Mission or Hammer - Black Widow Nasty

Highest game : 245 :( (soon to improve)
Highest serie : 671 :( (again soon to improve)
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Xeph

No need to quote entire responses.

Without knowing a lot more about your game, I really can't say what would be good for these patterns.

The Instanbul10 pattern is flat and heavy, but kind of short at only 37feet. I'd play it up 5 and in with a solid. Best to just use your favourite strong ball, splitting first and second arrow, then adjust from there. The pattern is very flat, but tapers out to 37 very gradually. Expect carrydown, and a lot of adjustments.

The other pattern is just the Kegel "Easy Street"... Which you can play pretty much however you want. No seriously, any angle you can think of will work on Easy Street. I'd play the track, possibly with urethane or plastic, because I don't bother wheeling it unless I absolutely must.

Fill me in more on your game: Where you like to play, what spares do you see most often, do you like to rev it up, or throw speeders?
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: Mar 2010
Posts: 19
My speed and rev. are balanced, but sometimes i throw the ball with a high degree (around 60-80) otherwise i normally throw it around 45-50.

As for spares, sometimes i hit the 1-3 at the same time which causes to leave a 10, else if i get in pocket (most of the time i do in istanbul open pattern) i see some 2-8 (cause ball enters the pocket very lightly and near the 3rd pin)



@Istanbul Open pattern i've tried my Rogue Cell around 10 or so today and got some good result, i've talked with a very professional bowler today and we got a dissussion about the oil, he told me that i should throw it from 1st or 2nd board for getting the best result (maximizing the error tolerance) since oil is starting to get flat around there.


I'm confused about what to do actually,i've tried the way that he told me and got some good results too (even with my Scout Reactive!), but also i threw 5 or 6 balls into gutter.

What do you think?
_______________
Arsenal

Roto Grip - Rogue Cell
Storm - Second Dimension
Ebonite - Lanebreaker
Columbia 300 - Scout Reactive
AMF - Nighthawk Pearl
Roto Grip - Crown

Soon to buy : Ebonite - Mission or Hammer - Black Widow Nasty

Highest game : 245 :( (soon to improve)
Highest serie : 671 :( (again soon to improve)
« Last edit by Xeph The Great on Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:14 pm. »
Member
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 276
In basic terms my pin action and carry SUCK, my ball seems to hook as soon as I set it down then very little happens in the back end. I have a few questions
what methods can I use to create some better angle into the pocket?
How do players like norm duke and walter ray williams jr create such great pin action with low rev rates?

thanks
_______________
almost 2 years of bowling
average - 183
high game - 247 (practice) 258 (league)
high series - 627(203,210,214)
equipment :-
-Storm attitude shift
-Brunswick avalanche pearl
-Brunswick Target Zone
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Xeph

So you're balanced, with the occasional high tilt.

To play any pattern when you're a truly balanced bowler doesn't depend on the ball. It's just a matter of making good moves, and adjusting at the right time. Scale 3 bowlers should stay away from the extremes as far as balls go. Nothing at the low end, or high end of the RG limits. I've found that solids around the 2.5RG (+/- 0.01) really work well with 3's.

Now... As for someone telling you to play the 1 - 2 board... Are they competing against you? On the flat pattern, you should be playing straight up between 2nd and 3rd arrow, then kicking it in late... That's how all the pros played the former US Open flat pattern.

Going straight at the pocket from the 1-2 is fine for beginners using plastic... But if you've got a reactive, you play where the oil is to maximize your hold zone.

ChipmunkBowl

First off, next time you bowl, mark your PAP with a piece of tape that is very visible in contrast to your ball. Play a full game where you just try to hit a spot, say 2nd arrow, and don't worry about hitting anything else, including pins.

If you can buddy bowl, have your buddy make a sheet of 10 circles, then mark off where he saw the tape as it rolled over your spot. If you can get a cam to shoot it instead, it's a lot easier.

Either way, with the cam or friend, have them get low. To get the most accurate positioning of the tape as it rolls over your spot, the eye should be 4.25" from the floor (about the width of a fist... Yes... Just that low), and in the center of the lane, aimed at the headpin.

Compare the results and see what the average position is. If the tape is dead center, that means you have a ton of side roll, and the ball will always hook very early.

Depending on the style you play, creating angle to the pocket is more about good adjustments, than your balls roll. Often, beginners will jump around the approach, when a board or two, or up/down a few inches will do. You need to read the pattern, and read your ball reaction, then adjust. If you're a league bowler... That's what a practice session is for. Don't move on every shot, make sure you get 3 or 4 shots (at least 2 per lane) over the same spot before you start moving.

Pin action is all about parting the pins. For right handers, the ball should only touch the 1, 3, 5, and 9 pin. It should cleanly cut the rack in half, and the result should have the other pins being knocked out from the parting. Even if you throw it very slowly, with no revs, if it cuts through the rack on the right path, all the pins will fall.

WRW and Duke are kings of precision. They can see the angle they need to come off the pattern at to get the best parting of the rack. WRW uses 15lbs pieces, so his angle is usually sharper, which is why he plays up 5 and in, while Duke uses more 16lbs equipment, and goes more direct to the pocket. They know how their ball will deflect off the headpin, and carry through the rack.

It's not enough to just hit the pocket. I hear that a lot. "Man! I'm killing the 1-3, but I'm just not carrying the corners!" Then it turns out they're using 14lbs equipment straight up 3rd arrow on a 40' pattern.

Find out how much side roll you're putting on the ball, then work on adjusting your angle into the pocket, so the ball splits the rack. The cleaner it passes through the parting, the better.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 211
s2dio,

Thanks to your advice about the Middle Road pattern, I pocketed a fairly painless $650 in scholarship money.

So... just tell me what your cut is.

I've got a similar tourney coming up on the Beaten Path pattern.

Any advice?
_______________
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers..."
- Carl Sagan
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
TheKorean2908

Congrats! *cyber high five* My reward is hearing I managed to help, even at a distance, and over the interwebs... And your first born male that I will train in the Dark Arts.

The Kegel Navigation Challenge Series "Beaten Path" oil pattern (I'm going to start abbreviating soon) is very similar to the "Middle Road" pattern. It's a couple of feet longer, and a bit heavier down the middle.

The forward oil application is longer (41'), but the reverse application is the same (32') as Middle Road. That means quicker breakdown on the backend. It really is best to follow the "Beaten Path".

Your starting point should be the 10th board at 41'. So straight up the second arrow to the outside range finder. There's a lot of oil in the middle, so the straighter game will be key until the pattern starts to thin out.

Be careful if you want to wheel it more, missing that breakpoint at the range finder will probably just have your ball skid out into the 10 pin.

In summary? Start on the tenth. Look for a breakpoint on the outside range finder (if it's there). Straighter is greater. Try to err left so you don't skid out to the 10 pin. Watch the other players for breakdown clues, and get ready to chase the line left.

Hope this helps... Remember, pins down, chin up.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 276
have you got any advice on getting the ball to push past the mids before it hooks? my ball always seems to hook in the mids
_______________
almost 2 years of bowling
average - 183
high game - 247 (practice) 258 (league)
high series - 627(203,210,214)
equipment :-
-Storm attitude shift
-Brunswick avalanche pearl
-Brunswick Target Zone
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
ChipmunkBowl

Depending on what equipment you're using, there's 2 very quick fixes.

1. Polish! Put a heavy shine on your ball, and it will get further down the lane before breaking. Upside is that polish will prolong the life of your coverstock, and give you more backend reaction. Downside is that a heavily shined ball is more twitchy when it meets the dry. So precision becomes essential.

2. The Tight Line. As a Juniors coach, I see a lot of other coaches push the big wheel. Telling kids to lay it down on 39, send it out to 1, then let it rip back. Pure sales pitch. I've seen it too many times... The coach owns the proshop, pushes the big hook, and when the person can't do it, he sells them a "stronger" ball.

Take a look at the major title winners from the PBA, and how they've won those titles. It's not so much "Down and In", as a simple tight line. Instead of playing 39 to 1 and back, try 20 to 10 and back. Playing near the center of the lane will always provide more length.

Many Moons ago, the "Urethane Line" was king. The big rev players would lay it down deep inside, but aim for the 3pin. The ball would skid hard until it hit its breakpoint right in front of the pocket, making a quick move, obliterating the rack. This is actually one of my absolute favourite lines to play.

The upside is the power at the pins, playing the Tight or Urethane line makes for epic carry. The downside is that there's virtually no room for error. Missing your breakpoint at 50feet could mean killing a 10 pin, going through the nose or heart... Just bad news.

There are other options... But those 2 are the easiest, and quickest, and don't involve re-education or arsenal replacement.

Of course if you're revving the nuts off it, while using snail speed, and an Invasion... Then what's that?!?!? *runs away*
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 276
something else I thought about was that if I felt the ball wasn't flipping over enough on the backends and only hooking in the mids withwas I could move left with my feet and slow my speed down a bit, and if I felt the ball was just hooking in the mid lane and rolling out was to speed it up. would this kind of system be beneficial or is there more to it than that?
_______________
almost 2 years of bowling
average - 183
high game - 247 (practice) 258 (league)
high series - 627(203,210,214)
equipment :-
-Storm attitude shift
-Brunswick avalanche pearl
-Brunswick Target Zone
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
ChipmunkBowl

Oh yeh totally... Uh. Sure.

I think you may have written that a bit quick... Cuz I'm having trouble deciphering it.

Please form your question in the form of a question. :D
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 2
s2dio,

Hats off to you for the information on this site. I've learned more in the past few days here than I have in 6 months reading elsewhere.

After a 12 year layoff from the game, I decided to join a league this past season. For the first 6 months, I was bowling with an old plastic red dot drilled back in the early 80's. On a THS, was averaging around 215 or so. I talked to my local pro shop about purchasing some new equipment and how much the technology has changed. He watched me throw a game or two and proceeded to recommend the following as my first new ball. (I've added the layout specs after reading and learning from this site)

Mars- 4X4 3" PB with MB on VAL. (I say MB on val based on old school of drawing line from pin through cg until 6.75"..feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

From day one, this ball had to much snap on the back end so I put it back in the bag and brought out the 30 year old plastic dinosaur. I then asked him if the Natural would be a good addition and he said yes. Again, after reading this site, it appears it's drilled exactly the same way....4.25 X 4.25 3.5"PB with MB on VAL. Ball had a much smoother reaction than the Mars, not as much backend, but still not the smooth controllable arc I've been use to for 30 years of bowling with old equipment.

My question to you is what are your thoughts on these layouts for these two balls? What other balls, and layouts would you recommend for me to add or complete my arsenal? The guy at the pro shop told me I throw the ball alot like Pete Weber....lot's of side roll, slightly rev dominate, low tilt. PAP is 5 over, 1 up.

BTW, my layouts may be off a little bit. Don't have a quarter scale, but was using a flexible ruler to take the measurements.

Thanks a million
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
I have to say... Not having league on Saturday night is messing with my brain. I guess 36 weeks of routine suddenly interrupted will play with one's mind.

Anyhoo...

Righwing65

Thank you for the sentiments, and bienvenue to the forum, always good to have some new blood.

And welcome back to bowling! Things have changed, yes... Some things more than others, for better or for worse, it's still the same deal. Throw ball, knock down as many pins as possible, high five closest person, repeat until told to leave.

On to the questions!

#1. My immediate thought on both layouts was: "That's safe." Which isn't a bad thing. But the expectation vs. actual result would be a bit extreme. Both pieces were drilled pretty much leverage, and neither has much horsepower under the cover.

Let's take a little closer look at them.

The Roto-Grip Mars has, at 15lbs, an RG of 2.61 and a Diff of 0.028. A hybrid coverstock finished at 1500grit then polished. Translation? Long and snappy on everything. Unless you go with a seriously short pin and kept the CG in your palm, there's no really functional way to play the big wheel with any of Roto-Grip's Planet Series... Except maybe the Pluto, if you hit the surface with 1000, rolled it smooth, but revved the nuts out of it. It's an Entry performer, and best for those who like to play up 5 and in. I LIKE IT! Not as much as the Pluto... But it's good.

The Storm Natural has, at 15lbs, an RG of 2.55 and a Diff of 0.038. A new-gen of solid urethane cover, and finished at 2000grit. Translation? Long and smooth. Not really the biggest mover, and absolutely essential for someone who likes to play the outside gutter all day. I luvs the Natural... Because it doesn't move too much. The closest description I've heard of it around the shop is: "A retro banger with a good core... Wish it hooked more." Hey... That rhymes.

#2. About your style. If the PAP you had lifted is correct, then you do have lots of side roll, but also a HIGH tilt. If your PAP has an "up" measurement that high (over 3/4"), then you're topping it a lotta bit. Add to that if you're rev dominant, then you'll need some stronger stuff to play an inside line easier. That brings me neatly to...

#3. What would I recommend? Looks like your shop specializes in Storm/Roto, so we'll stick with them. A very good start would be the Storm Furious. Same core as the Natural, but a stronger cover to really dig into the lane and get some movement earlier, and easier. Then you could step up higher and go to the Storm Invasion (awful webpage). Much stronger cover, and a big honking core to get some fat arcs going.

If you'd rather go the Roto route (see what I did there?), then your first step would be to a Nomad. It may look shiny, but it's still a solid cover, and plenty of Diff power to bring it back from gutterville. Next step up would be the Mutant Cell. In my opinion, one of the best releases Roto-Grip has ever made. It has a powerful cover for effortless hook, and a core that has limitless possibilities.

My recommended 1 - 2 punch would be the Furious and Mutant, then have your Natural as a backup for when it gets really burned up. For your PAP, I'd recommend Pin lengths between 4" and 4.75", and CG placement kept close to your thumb for the Furious. I'd go with 4.5" to 5.25" pin lengths, MB's between 3.75" and 4.25", and a 4" to 5" buffer for the Mutant Cell.

In conclusion, you got a couple of good pieces that were laid out safe so you could keep them on the lane. With a little work, maybe a deeper knee bend, releasing closer to your ankle, and not so much out in front of your toes, you could get a bit more out of what you have. Then, budget allowing, move up to a Furious to open up the lane.

Feel free to post any questions you (or anyone else) may have! Happy to have something bowling related to do now that the season is dead.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Michigan, USA
Stew,

I haven't reared my ugly head around here in a while but I suppose it's time to ask for ball advice.

When I first started talking to you, I was more of a slightly rev dominant player... I've since increased my ball speed which has evened my game out a bit. With that speed increase, the equipment I'm currently using... namely the Perfect Rival and Rogue Cell which used to be pieces I could get inside with... have become more of track area pieces for me. So I'm looking for something I can get inside with comfortably.

I've read your opinions about the Pure Swing... I'm probably going to stay away from it because I don't want something that's going to go too long up the center. It seems like the Pure Swing would just be like playing with my Black Freeze (the 5.5 x 4 one) with a more responsive back end... which could work but I think I'd have to be incredibly consistent with it and I don't really want to turn a forgiving shot into something I have no room for error on... (I'm looking for something that will be a little more forgiving from the inside).

The two I've really been staring at with the most thought are the Mission and the C-System 3.5. I read your description of the Mission being a very continuous arcing ball but I couldn't really find any descriptive comments on the C-System 3.5 (I know you hate stuff with the B logo for the most part lol). Between the two, which do you think would make a more readable ball when I want to get inside of my opponents, or when I need to play inside where the oil is on a burnt up house shot? Which will start it's motion early enough to make up for my increased ball speed, but still carry enough energy to the back part of the lane to continue through the rack?

If you have any other ball suggestions I'm totally open for those too.

Thanks in advance~
_______________
High Game (House, Sport): 290, 268 [Viper 38 ft.]
High Series: 774 (267, 246, 261)

---- Bag (Descending order of boards covered) ----

C300 Ego (Kept at 800 Grit to burn up floods)
Roto Grip Rogue Cell
C300 Perfect Rival
C300 Freeze (5.5 x 4 - Long and angular)
C300 Freeze (2.5 x 2.5 - Much smoother)
C300 Jazz
Hello Kitty Viz-A-Ball <3
Member
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 2
s2dio,

"Roto route"...now that's funny stuff.

Well, to quote Marisa Tomei from My Cousin Vinny, you are "balls on dead accurate" about my game. For my entire life, I have been upright at the foul line and do come over the top at times. And, when I miss.... I miss left of target. Makes perfect sense.

I checked my PAP again this morning at the lanes, and found it to be closer to 5 over, 3/4 up...so probably not as bad as I was 6-12 months ago. Been practicing a lot these past few months trying to straighten out my game. But, this is probably a discussion for another forum.

Anyway, back to the pieces you recommend. ..sounds great. You had talked in this thread about the original Cell was designed to have smooth continuous roll through the pin deck. In reading up on the Mutant, it talks about creating that sharper angle of attack. As somebody said "It's the original cell on steroids". That angle won't be a concern for me will it? Other than that, I'm looking forward to the purchases this summer.

OK, a question for you. Regarding the MB on a symetrical ball. You had stated in these threads that drawing a line from pin through the cg for 6.75 inches will NOT necessarily locate the MB. You mentioned you could use the Key drilling system, but use the CG instead of the MB when doing your layouts. I've got a real serious case of mind block going on with that...I'm having a tough time seeing this in my head. I think my hang up is what if the ball is a "pin in" config .....you know, CG pretty short from pin. How do you lay this out? It seems the CG would pretty much fall where ever the pin was located, and that it would be very limited in what you could do with the ball. Is this correct? Would you need to make sure you get a ball with a pretty long "pin out" configuration from the factory?

Another question...this one about RG. You talked about making sure once you've layed out a ball, it's important to verify that you are at a different RG value for that ball than some other pieces you have. So, does the ball maintain that RG value throughout it's migration, regardless of the flare..or am I changing the RG value all the way down the lane? I suppose it would depend on the shape of the core, correct? But aside from that.....if I've got three pieces each with a different RG value based on pin distance and so forth, will those three balls be consistent in the RG values throughout it's migration? Hope that makes sense.....Thanks again for all the information here...been really enjoying reading this.

Regards..
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
So hot... So very hot... *Stoo got AIR CONDITIONER* *Zelda theme!*

This will be an extended entry... So we'll break it into 2 parts to answer both of you at copious length.

Part Uno!

rensu

Burning a hole in the Mission and C3.5? Alrighty... Lets take a realistic look at them.

The Ebonite Missions is a deceptive piece. It whispers "hook monster", it talks "power", and it screams "bad azz!" Which would be nice... If it backed it up. I do like it a lot, but it's not the super power that its ad sheet portrays. From what I've seen others do and done myself, the Mission is one of the smoothest, and easiest pieces to use to play a very simple arc line to obliterate racks. But try to seriously push it, and it all goes wrong.

Not matter what it says... The Mission only has modified "light bulb" core and a rough cover. It just won't matchup to a Mutant, or Invasion for total power.

BUT! A bowler I roll with regularly has a serious fastball (regularly he wings it around 22 - 25mph), and loves the Mission's late kick created with strong revs and a good helping of speed. Still not a plus for the inside line I guess.

Now the Brunswick C.System 3.5... And a confession. Anyone want to guess what the best selling performance ball was in the 2 shops where I work this season? Invasion? Nope. Mutant Cell? Nein. Mission? Negative. It's the Siege. Before I'd ever put a 3.5 in anyone's hands, I'd offer them a Siege.

I may not agree with their business practices, but Brunswick had the best releases this year. Ok, ok, pick your jaw up... I said it, and I can't take it back. Between the Siege, Diamondback, Rattler, Python, and Avalanche, Brunswick had the best selling, and most efficient line-up this year.

The 2.5 and 3.5 just didn't make sense when you had the Diamondback and the Siege. That could be why you haven't heard much about the C.System's. If you want effortless hook no matter the condition, with balanced speed and revs, the Siege will amaze you... You could even go with a Diamondback with a power pin placement, and outperform the 3.5.

My best advice would be to steer clear of both the Mission and 3.5 if you want more power for the inside line if you're now upping the speed regularly. The Siege would give you more room, and earlier hook in a predictable, repeatable motion. I'd also point to a Mutant, but it may be a bit more than you're looking for, same goes for the Invasion. If it's a controllable read for a stronger inside line... Its gotta be the Siege.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
« Last edit by s2dio on Mon May 24, 2010 10:14 pm. »
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
Part Deux...

Righwing65

I wouldn't suggest going straight for the Mutant. It's a huge step up from what you've got now, and there's nowhere to go after you get it. As much as I'd recommend a Siege, if someone only had an Avalanche, I'd recommend a Diamondback first before they stepped up to a Siege. Since you have a Mars and Natural, I'd point you to a Furious before you picked up a Mutant. The Furious is an awesome benchmark ball.

You are correct, shooting a line through the CG from the pin doesn't give you the EXACT position of the MB. On symmetric cores the mass bias isn't strong enough to be marked, and no matter how good the manufacturing process, the cores are never centered perfectly. Hence why you have some pieces with a 1" pin, and others with a 6" pin. Look at any ball with it's MB marked, and you'll see it's not dead center through the CG to the pin.

As for the Key Method, its just a matter of triangulation. Distance from "A" intersecting with distance from "B" to establish "C". A->C is Pin to PAP, and B->C in MB/CG to PAP. Using the Key Method with a marked mass bias is easier, because you have a constant distance of 6 3/4" between A and B (Pin and MB). Just gotta sharpen up your grease pen if you're dealing with short pins. Remember that it's the angle of the line from the pin through the CG, in relation to the VAL and midline. The angle of that line determines a honkload of stuff.

If you play around with buffers that match your PAP length, then you can quickly manage the angle just by increasing and decreasing the distance from CG/MB to the PAP.

So pin length doesn't really matter as long as you keep your lines clean and in order.

Now for RG migration... Yes! the RG value does change as the ball rolls. When you you roll the ball, you impart YOUR natural axis on it, better known as your PAP. That axis has a certain RG value that you can figure out by dividing the Diff by 6.75, then multiplying that by the distance from Pin to PAP. The ball will then fight against your imparted axis until it gets back to its own natural axis. If you're using a high flare layout, then it'll get there sooner.

Pin distance doesn't affect flare, CG and MB position do. The closer both are to the power position (3 3/8" from your PAP), the larger the flare. The common practice is to go with MB positions that don't flare to the extreme in order to give you more control. If you have multiple pieces with the same RG, you'll be able to play ONE line on ONE pattern, only the coverstock will impact anything. Having a range of RG values and flare levels will make your arsenal useful for a range of conditions.

Personally, I push strong layouts on strong pieces, and weak layouts on weak pieces. A lot of proshops push to the exact opposite... Which baffles me. Why take a ball with a high RG and try to force power into it? Or take a powerhouse, and try to kill its natural strength? That's why keeping track of the RG values is so important for owning multiple balls. As I always say, you can change a cover, but once there are holes in the ball, you're stuck with it.

Hope that answered everything.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Michigan, USA
s2dio wrote
I'd also point to a Mutant, but it may be a bit more than you're looking for, same goes for the Invasion. If it's a controllable read for a stronger inside line... Its gotta be the Siege.


Thanks for the suggestions! I'll definitely be thinking about this purchase more.

Regarding the Siege... it seems to be a fairly smooth piece from what I've seem from bowlers using it. What sort of drill pattern would you suggest so I can get enough kick in the back to carry the corners? Also, how would a Mutant Cell compare (stronger obviously from what you said... but how much stronger I wonder...)? I pretty much am looking for a new "strongest ball in the bag" on top of being something I can get inside with and considering I love how my Rogue Cell hits... I'd be fairly tempted to look into the Mutant Cell too :D


**Edit: I think the Reign of Fire gets a pretty nice look from the inside too, what do you think about that piece?
_______________
High Game (House, Sport): 290, 268 [Viper 38 ft.]
High Series: 774 (267, 246, 261)

---- Bag (Descending order of boards covered) ----

C300 Ego (Kept at 800 Grit to burn up floods)
Roto Grip Rogue Cell
C300 Perfect Rival
C300 Freeze (5.5 x 4 - Long and angular)
C300 Freeze (2.5 x 2.5 - Much smoother)
C300 Jazz
Hello Kitty Viz-A-Ball <3
« Last edit by rensu on Tue May 25, 2010 6:58 pm. »
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
rensu

It's big power you want? I'd definitely go with the Mutant. I've thrown Mutants with the same layout as Sieges, and the Mutant has always been at least 5 boards stronger.

It has a more tunable and versatile core than the Invasion, and the cover is at the same time forgiving, yet accurate. It's not as insanely big, fat arcing as the Invasion, but in order to make an Invasion last for more than half a game on a THS, you have to kill its core dynamics. Which as I've previously stated, makes absolutely no sense to me.

I never really liked the Cell. It was a very good ball, but it was too "normal", too safe, and that didn't sit right with me. With the Mutant though, they made something that could be laid out to be skid/flippy after some polish, wheeling big arc powerhouse, or anything in between. You can make it smooth, or angular, just using pin placement. Great core, good cover, me like.

[rant]

The Reign of Fire is very close to the Evolve... In the right hands, with the right layout, it can really cover boards across the lane and back. But for most people? It's a great track line ball that has an awesome finish at the pins. What most people get thrown by is the CAM core. It isn't much bigger than your fist, but it's made to look like it takes up 90% of the inside of the ball on the ads... But it's not that big, hence why it has a higher RG, and big Diff.

Same deal goes for the (now euthanized) Ebonite Evolve. People did NOT get that ball. Literally and figuratively. Worst selling Ebo piece ever. I loved it. A solid cover with a mid-high RG? Epic for touch bowlers. But crankers? Wow... Fail. I'm 100% sure that if the Reign and RoF weren't pretty, and made by Storm, they would've tanked as well. I sold A LOT of Reign, and just as many RoF's... But I never see them used. Occasionally I'll see one on the return, that's about it.

Both the Evolve and Reign are very reliant on their coverstocks. As soon as the cover changes, you get a vastly different look unless you had planned for it, knowing exactly what the core would be able to give. So either you have to be psychic, or spend a gronk load amount of time playing with math in a ball physics simulator... Guess which option I follow?

I think both designers saw the Freeze, and tried to make something to compete with it (specially considering the brilliance of Ebo Int.'s marketing wing)... But somehow the point got lost, and they ended up with overpriced, under-performing pieces that no one understood.

[/rant]

Steer clear of the Reign of Fire if you're looking for oomph... It's a good ball, but it may not be exactly as it appears in your rear view mirror.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
« Last edit by s2dio on Thu May 27, 2010 3:16 pm. »
Member
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Michigan, USA
Stew,

Thanks for your input, I'll probably look into the Mutant. What kind of drilling would you recommend if I want to get deeper inside with it?
_______________
High Game (House, Sport): 290, 268 [Viper 38 ft.]
High Series: 774 (267, 246, 261)

---- Bag (Descending order of boards covered) ----

C300 Ego (Kept at 800 Grit to burn up floods)
Roto Grip Rogue Cell
C300 Perfect Rival
C300 Freeze (5.5 x 4 - Long and angular)
C300 Freeze (2.5 x 2.5 - Much smoother)
C300 Jazz
Hello Kitty Viz-A-Ball <3
Member
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 211
Man, is this forum dying a slow death or what?

Anyway... I think this forum should henceforth refer to you as "The Dude Lebowski." Any objections? ...Anyone?

Now, down to business...

I need something that does NOT hook. As in, I need something LONG and REALLY predictable off the breakpoint. I was recently beaten in matchplay on the Chameleon, simply because I ran out of room to the left, and I'm not exactly comfortable playing in front of the ball return, since it's something I very rarely do.

The only two balls I had that were even close were my Link and Tropical Storm. Both were still way too aggressive off the breakpoint, even though I was standing in front of the left ditch.

I recently just won a Razyr... although, I've never really been too high on that ball, to be honest. If you think I should go with it, could I get some layout recommendations? If not, I can always swap it for something else; and in that case, what would you recommend?

In addition, do you have any suggestions on playing comfortably in front of the ball return? I'd imagine it's something I won't use often, but should at least familiarize myself with it...

Hope you're enjoying your "off-season!"
_______________
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers..."
- Carl Sagan
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
rensu

For a Scale 3? My fave layout: 4 x 4 + 4. It's not the extreme, but it's close. You may need a small balance hole on your VAL, depending on your PAP to keep it static legal. Keep the cover clean, and hit it with 1000 or 2000 every now and again to keep it strong.

TheKorean2908

Oi... The Razyr... Man did Hammer did away with one for that ball. It's a spareball with a coverstock from a crappy entry level ball that never made it into production.

You can lay it out with a 6" pin and it'll skid forever. It won't move. You could even throw it in the Haus machine and run it for 20 minutes with 4000grit... Then polish it!!! It'll have a bit of a kick about 6" from the deck if you roll it up the back.

Another option is the new Brunswick Slingshot. It's got a little walnut core that'll help with carry, and next to no Diff that let's it rev forever.

The issue I have with both is that they're polished pearls. Same goes for the Link and Tropical... Pearls just don't have the same control as solids. It's funny that manufacturers make their entry level junk shiny. Why do they punish new bowlers?

Another option is a long pin and MB layout on a Storm Reign of Fire, or Ebonite Evolve. If you want real non-action, find a Red/Black Ebo Bash, those with a long pin layout don't move either. Plus, both Ebo pieces are discontinued, so you can have them cheap.

My Evolve has a 5.25" pin and 5" MB with the CG just above my thumb (I track low enough to keep it legal without a balance hole). It hardly moves when I get up the back of it, and I know exactly where it's going to break the whole night after 1 practice shot.

As for playing in front of the ball return? That's easy... Don't. ;)

Kidding aside, it's all about keeping your timing in some way. I know some guys who nod their head for each step they would've taken, some march in place to count off the missing steps, others juggle the ball weight from hand to hand, and then some will just change their third step (in a 5 step approach) to a big hitch left to step in front of the return.

Watching your videos... And I did with extreme scrutiny, a notepad, and a stern look. You have your full swing in the three final steps of your five step approach. I'll forego telling you that getting the ball into your swing earlier would help with control, and I'll omit poking you in the head for dropping your chin at the release... Because I have the will power to refrain from that type of thing.

For your style, to play in front of the return, I'd suggest trying the march in place deal. Walk back from the foul line 3 steps, and add a shoe. That should put you in front of the return, but not sitting on it. Set yourself, making sure your shoulders are square to your target, march Left-Right, then proceed as normal. It will take practice... But it's Summer! What else do you have to do?

Speaking of my "off-season" and getting out of your comfort zone... I'm working on my 2 handed release, NOT using my PowerPaw, and making my spareball do stuff it really shouldn't.

... and you're right. Besides this thread, this forum is dead.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew
Member
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 211
s2dio,

What would you say about the Avalanche Urethane Pearl? I'm not a big fan of Brunswick pieces (I've never owned one), but it's got my best friend (and pro shop owner) salivating over.

I was really infatuated with the Bash Red/Black, but I never got my hands on one. I think my first choice would be that one. If I can get my hands on one, any suggestions on a layout?

Finally, I have been working this summer on getting the ball into the swing a little earlier (as you saw, it looks like my push-away actually takes place around my 2 1/2 step, instead of my 2nd). But what do you mean about dropping my chin? And do you have any suggestions to fix it?
_______________
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers..."
- Carl Sagan
Member
Registered: Feb 2008
Posts: 398
Location: Montreal, QC. Canada
TheKorean2908

The only reason to buy a Brunswick Avalanche Urethane Pearl is if you can get a really good deal, and you don't expect much. It's no different than the Storm Natural or Roto-Grip Grenade. Urethane covers with simple cores.

For the Bash (luvs that ball) get the pin 5" - 6" from your PAP, and place the CG on your centerline, just above your thumb. You'll get this great, late, smooth motion if you roll it right up the back.

Whatever you do get, just remember to go as long as you can with distances from marks to PAP. Specially the CG. Keep that as far from your PAP as you can while keeping it "legal", and you'll have a great, simple, late motion ball.

*puts on coaching hat*
Practice walking. Yup... Walking. Your swing is dictating your feet. You should be able to move your feet like you're walking normally, and have your swing fall into that rhythm.

You've got a very good pushaway, then the ball seems to take control of your pace and positioning. A lot of Juniors have the same deal up here. They're all schooled in the worship of Rev (I'm going to get ordained as Rev. Rev). They have late timing, and are more aware of the balls position than they are of their actual approach.

Best fix? Grab an empty ball box, and start walking around swinging it back and forth. Get one with a hand hold hole, grab it and make sure your palm faces in front of you at all times. I believe I wrote earlier in this thread that people should practice their approach until it becomes automatic. I practiced mine in grocery stores, movie lines, on walks with my girlfriend (who looked at me real funny for walking 5 steps, resetting, walking 5 steps, etc...).

I think too much emphasis is put on the swing too early in coaching. Footwork is far more important than your swing. Get a solid base, and then you can work on your swing quicker and easier.

At 0:05 of this video you posted, you can see a dip of your head and shoulders as the ball bottoms out in your swing. Your hair also kicks forward a bit, showing that you're dropping your chin at that moment. It's a natural thing, just the way your body reacts at that point of the swing, I've seen it a lot in Juniors, and specially in those with very late timing like yourself.

You slide out your left foot, take a step with your right, close up your feet, and start your swing with a small left step, followed by a normal right step, and a solid plant for your finish slide. It's definitely a rev favoured approach that revolves around your late timing swing, much like Rudy "Revs" Kasimakis. Forward motion, a stutter step for the wind up, then a little rush for the finish.

To be honest... This would require a BIG change. If you're serious about making that kind of alteration to your game, you'll have to eat a few weeks of crappy scores, and lots of outside practice.

Like you, I'll be posting a series of bowling vids from the last 2 years. My style, approach, swing, damn near everything has changed drastically. But my game has also improved by leaps and bounds... Even if every major change took weeks of practice, and posting hideous scores. Practice paid off though, in my circle, I'm known for having an effortless swing, and still managing to keep a low 400's rev rate. That's me... "Lazy Arm". I hear it often: "Man, how do you have hits like that, when it looks like you're putting nothing on it?" My answer? "PRACTICE!"

The option I'll make available to you and everyone from this forum, is my messenger address... " s2dio@hotmail.com " Anyone can add me, as long as you let me know before hand. I'm regularly available at work, and at home to chat bowling. Just having someone to field questions can help a lot when you're practicing.

Plus it's Summer! If I'm not working on my game, selling a couple of balls a week (if i'm lucky), or napping in front of the A/C... I'll answer promptly. I've even done a few video chats on the lane... Who says bowling is a caveman's sport?

Up to y'all... I like having some action on this thread again.
_______________
"Sure... I can drill that brand new, top of line, first quality piece with a 6 x 6 + 7... Who needs hook ALL the time? Am I right?" -Stew

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